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Discussion The state of Pocketmine.

Comments in 'Forum Discussion' started by iamadpond, Jul 24, 2016.

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  1. Extreme_Heat
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    Extreme_Heat Active Member

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    I think that such a large undertaking should definitely be up to shoghi as it is ultimately under his ownership. I'm OK with the community lifting up and making a "defacto" standardized fork of it but it should not be under the "PocketMine" branding to conflict with the two. If shoghi ever does decide to come back, he should be able to continue work on his project.

    Note: there's nothing wrong with "forking" -- that's the premise of free open source software. Most of the time when an open-source project is "abandoned" by its creator, forks will supersede the main repository. It's just etiquette to make the fork distinguishable from the origin.
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2016
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  2. dktapps
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    dktapps Active Member

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  3. iamadpond
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    iamadpond Banned

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    I'm sorry, but you haven't seen our sheer effort in attempting to contact him. He is actively ignoring anyone related to this (his) project. From that we can safely assume , through the amount of time spent in the above statement, that he has abandoned the project with no hope for resurrection. The company he works for has direct conflicting goals with the existence of this project, RE: Minecraft Realms. And such would be imposing their view upon him, for the good of said company.
  4. SOFe
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    SOFe Banned

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    I won't blame @shoghicp though. It is his own career after all, and I see perfectly nothing wrong with his choice. He created the community, and he has the right to put it down anytime. There doesn't exist abstract concepts such as "social responsibilities" for a virtual group of netizens in front of a real person's real-life career.
    I don't understand what you are saying. Are you talking about the supply and demand of questions or answers?
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  5. SOFe
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    SOFe Banned

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    (Post re-posted due to excessive editing)

    Kids, you read too much teenage dystopia. Time for some adult dystopia.
    (Compare: Hunger Games, Maze Runner vs 1984, Animal Farm)

    For example:
    [​IMG]
    (The three boxes in the comic respectively: Dystopia background, fantasy/kids dystopia endings, adult dystopia endings)

    Aren't we all having too much hope thinking that we could somehow reassemble the MCPE world, much less the MCPE servers world, much less the PocketMine & Friends[1] world out of the current ruins. You really think that Thomas and his population of survivors are going to make a better world in the "safe place", in the Maze Runner trilogy? You really think that Snow, Coin or Paylor have any difference in dictatorship, in the Hunger Games trilogy? I am pretty sure that a community formed in this way can most easily fall apart again. The outcome will just be like the difference between humans and pigs in Animal Farm.
    ------------
    [1]: The term "friend" comes from C++. In C++, a friend class B of class A (class A has a friend class called B) means that B can access any private elements of A but A cannot unless B calls A a friend. Therefore, "PocketMine & Friends" means PocketMine and other server software that took things from PocketMine but didn't give anything back to PocketMine.
    Code:
    git pull https://GitHub.com/PocketMine/PocketMine-MP.git master
    # create new repo
    git push -u https://GitHub.com/MyRevolutionaryTeam/BetterThanFork.git master
    
    I suppose nobody really wants to enforce it. Usually only enterprises do that, and usually ends up being bullying in terms of money.
    Yes let's create a republic although we don't know if President Coin would be coming out to dictate.
    Then it's no longer PocketMine. No longer open-source. For example, some people who can't contribute their code to PocketMine master directly. Not saying banned users. I'm talking about people who enjoy coding PocketMine in their own way, not the PocketMine style. There are really legit ones who do that. For example, when @shoghicp was still active, @williamtdr created Steadfast and Steadfast2.
    You don't destroy all guns (such as including from the police) in the world just because somebody is using them to murder. Redistribution of modifications has its own meaning.
    We can only hope that people are doing them in a good will. Otherwise, if they want to be evil, nobody, including license enforcers, can stop them. (So many pirate Minecraft copies)
  6. iamadpond
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    iamadpond Banned

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    Granted the meme is amusing, I don't find that this Pocketmine "Standard" isn't going to get better anyday. It's not like we're just average forum users attempting to create pocketmine again. We actually are pocketmine. And so we [The Pocketmine Team] are moving the project into a new future, through unannounced future actions. And such as we are the Original Pocketmine Developers who are considered the "Official" branch of Pocketmine.

    Granted again, it may be hard to ascertain this legitimacy to Pocketmine Users. But its our [The Pocketmine Team] code to which Pocketmine ran on clients machines. And so we feel confident in calling ourselves the Legitimate flavour of Pocketmine.
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  7. SOFe
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    SOFe Banned

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    What I meant is that those Friends of PocketMine will still exist. I don't think any forces right now can maintain the order. Although their existence isn't a problem originally, I still consider them to be causes of confusion, which will forever be detrimental to how this community works. I really doubt if we can actually summon a force that is competitive enough, assuming that there is inevitable competition.

    I have a feeling that there exists wishful thinking around here that bringing PocketMine alive again will be like those old rotten stories: Once you reveal that you are representatives from the Emperor, the bandits will automatically surrender!
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  8. dktapps
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    dktapps Active Member

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    PM is going to become something new. As with anything new on the market, it has to rise above its competitors to rule the market. It's obviously not going to happen overnight. It's not going to be a case of wave the magic wand and everything is suddenly fixed, it's going to be long, difficult and challenging. But if we sit here talking about how we don't think we can muster the force, nothing will get done.

    This community had hit an all-time rock-bottom when @iamadpond came back and smashed that standards hammer down a couple of days ago. I think we can only move upwards.

    Have some optimism. Believe that things can get better.
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2016
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  9. ZedCee
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    ZedCee New Member

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    Couldn't be more true and I couldn't agree more @dktapps .
    This is the nature development and in order to stay on top we must evolve.
  10. Extreme_Heat
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    Extreme_Heat Active Member

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    Does not exactly justify taking over someone else's project under the basis that they abandoned the project. It didn't happen with Bukkit; I see no reason why it has to happen here. If shoghi decided that he wanted to get rid of the project, he would have done so since. He wouldn't bother hosting pocketmine.net at all.

    If shoghi knew that he couldn't work on the project anymore and wanted the project to continue, he would have given the project over to someone else or at least given more people access to the Github repositories to keep the project alive. Him not interested in continuing his own project doesn't mean someone else should make the decision for him and take over the project.

    shoghicp owns pocketmine.net, the PocketMine IRC channel, the PocketMine GitHub repositories and a whole bunch of other PocketMine-related stuff. You're basically asserting that we have the right to take everything over.

    If we want to all agree on a new version (fork) of PocketMine, then we need to be independent of shoghi's things. It's not very nice to take over someone else's assets like this. It's like I make a forum for a project and then the community decides to make their own project and use the forums to further their own version. Shoghi's last commit to PocketMine happened earlier this year after a subsequent halt of updates to the project. So despite his absence in PocketMine-related forums and what not, he is at the very least aware of his project.

    As of making this post, I'm seeing alot of optimism from people interested in the concept. While everything might seem fine and dandy here in the short term, what you're looking to do in its current form is just asking for trouble.

    So I will reiterate my statements: you need to branch off of PocketMine and distinguish the version that you're making with shoghi's one, regardless of whether or not he's active or not. Don't get me wrong though, I like your plan to unify the scene but you really shouldn't be hijacking the original project without permission.
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  11. SOFe
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    SOFe Banned

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    This actually happened with @PEMapModder, although he left not long after that.

    Anyway, I agree with you in all. I cannot see why PocketMine could get broken apart before but now we can suddenly magically reassemble everyone to revive PocketMine. This really gives me deja vu about Animal Farm.

    Comrade @iamadpond is always right. :D

    Disclaimer: I am not mentioning anything about dictatorship. @shoghicp was not a dictator, so there is no reason relating anyone afterwards to be a dictator either.
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  12. Primus
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    Primus Notable Member

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    @shoghicp is not coming back for sure and you know that as much as we all do. So let the PocketMine die?
  13. Extreme_Heat
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    Extreme_Heat Active Member

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    Analogy:
    I own a building, and I allow people to live there. I stop working on the building, and abandon it. The residents are super angry and want to keep the building maintained, with some residents wanting to make the decision to overthrow my ownership. But instead of me kicking everyone out because of me "abandoning" it, I decide to keep the lights on.

    Super rude? Yes. Does that give them the power to suddenly take ownership when I'm still paying the bills? No.
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2016
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  14. iamadpond
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    iamadpond Banned

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    Technically speaking, the server is paid by the community. RE: Donation log on server website. Now the money does rest within Shoghicp's reach, but again technically speaking this community is crowdfunded. To all who say: "Leave Shoghicp deal with his project" , What does that accomplish? Why argue that we should leave this place to die effectively? [I emplore you to visit the IRC and chat to the Pocketmine Team over the effort we've spent trying to contact shoghicp and sort this out cleanly] Don't you want to live on here? The majority of us still do, and we are working to develop upon that.

    Analogy:

    The owner died [#BLAMESHOGHICP], the will was empty, then under certain laws in some countries [For Example my own], the property or land is left to "The next akin, or so forth". Even though its wasn't expressly given to us through the will or in this case a lack of it, it still lives on in the "Next Akin". [Github permissions, forum admin accounts]. We like to think of the frontpage as a locked bank account from the "Dead Relative"


    /Analogy

    Again, this place is crowdfunded via donations [Assuming Shoghicp kept his word all these years]. Available for viewing on the public donation log on the homepage. So another fact is that that lights are funded by us, and Shoghicp is the medium to which it is paid. / But this isn't always going to be the case. Donations don't exceed payments for the long term. We may have about only a year, half a year before they along aren't enough to pay costs. To which Shohicp will start taking on the cost, and then [and only then] does your analogy come into play.

    I'm sorry for nitpicking, but arguing against the upkeep of the forum in which you are probably using in some capacity is mind boggling me. We want to help the forums, but I just don't see why [aside from the fact they have the opinion we are too optimistic] people are so negative towards it?
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2016
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  15. Extreme_Heat
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    Extreme_Heat Active Member

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    The "lights on" part of the analogy is that shoghicp is the one paying to keep the server up here. It's his forums, and his domain. I think you're not understanding the point that I'm making here.

    As I said before, it shouldn't matter if shoghicp is active or not, it's still his project. Property laws aren't really applicable here, the closest thing you could say is trademark infringement. But even that's going too far in this scenario as we're not talking about the legal aspect of things. This is more of an ethical issue.

    [couldn't figure out how to use strikethrough, so I ended up deleted some of the text here in the process, derp.]
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2016
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  16. Jazzwhistle
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    Jazzwhistle Notable Member

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    Thank you @iamadpond for clearing up a few questions I've wanted to ask about how things work behind the scenes.

    I hope you manage to work something out with @shoghicp... but I'm wondering how can you be "in talks to take over the forums" if he is "actively ignoring anyone related to this (his) project."? And how can anyone "contact Shoghicp at their earliest convenience to discuss a project takeover/contribution rights" if he's even ignoring official PM staff?!
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2016
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  17. Extreme_Heat
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    Extreme_Heat Active Member

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    Primarily the only issue I had was with getting the OK of shoghicp if we were using the same "PocketMine" name to avoid confusion between the two repos. But we've sorted the issue out on IRC, so /me approves.
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  18. SOFe
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    SOFe Banned

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    If the members of the PocketMine team deletes all file in https://github.com/PocketMine/PocketMine-MP and make a file "Please see this new repo instead (link to new repo under new org)", do you still consider that as trademark infringement?
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  19. iamadpond
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    iamadpond Banned

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    Why are you all so considered about licenses with no one to enforce them? Pocketmines GPL [I have no idea which name it actually is, just go with] is use anything and everything with the project as long as the license survives. Do what you want, bastardise the name if you really wanted to as the license survives, that's the only legal requirement.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2016
  20. iksaku
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    iksaku Notable Member Plugin Developer

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    There are many ways to contribute this decision, so as @iampod said, leave @shoghicp already, if he wants (and he's work laws allow him) he will come back to help us.

    The thing now is to encourage the community itself to support each other, an open-source project can not grow if nobody helps but instead take it to develop self-benefical systems.

    Taking an example: MiNET's Community Members.
    For those that don't know, it is another Minecraft: PocketEdition server software, which is developed by gurun (owner) and the community itself (Every member that uses this software).
    A community like that worths a lot, because the few people that contribute to its development (Directly or not with coding) are getting rewarded by the contribution of other members, nobody just takes the software and keep their research and knowledge for private use, but instead they share it.

    I personally think that if there is a community willing to keep the PocketMine-MP legacy, they must do it. But keep in mind that you should support each other to truly achieve what is right now in discussion: Keep PocketMine Alive
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