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Donate or Paid plugin section

Comments in 'Forum Discussion' started by Primus, Aug 9, 2015.

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Should PocketMine team add Donate button for developers or Paid plugin section?

Poll closed Aug 16, 2015.
  1. Paid plugin section.

    8.0%
  2. Donate button

    72.0%
  3. Both

    8.0%
  4. I dont care

    12.0%
  1. TigerHix
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    TigerHix Active Member

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    Yeah dangit :p

    Forum rules are objective not that they came from "objective thoughts", but they are made objective. For example:

    The information is clear, and the reason behind the rule is also clear: to utilize the tag feature correctly. If someone tags their posts incorrectly, they are acting against this rule.

    The reason behind this one: to confine the scope of discussions to PocketMine (or Minecraft: PE servers) only. If someone makes an irrelevant post such as discussing which is better, PC or Mac, they are acting against this rule.

    Now what if...

    Okay, what is the reason behind this one? If according to your previous posts, the reason is "moral values". Because the behavior acts against "moral values", therefore the behavior is not allowed.

    Great, which means there is another hidden, unspoken rule behind this rule.

    Alright. The reason of the rule could be, PocketMine as an international forum, shall actively promote the good side. But how would one judge for this rule? Everyone, including every moderator/administrator here has their own moral values. Your moral values may disallow someone from trading, but someone's else may become different. Here comes the subjective part, and unless you objectively define "moral values" in the context, this rule is certainly not suitable as a forum rule.

    Of course we are talking here all being subjective for our own's opinions. But I can say unashamedly, that I have listed several objective arguments to support my subjective opinion. From similar examples, to the application of GNU license. But moral values - that is kinda moral blackmail to me.
    PEMapModder likes this.
  2. TigerHix
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    TigerHix Active Member

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    You raised a good point. But I would argue that, PocketMine forums as the main forum of Minecraft: PE server related discussions, shouldn't leave the chance or responsibility or whatever to other forums. I mean, in these days when everyone is shouting long live the free software, you can't even find a forum to sell your Minecraft related work. As far as I know, there are only two forums having such openness: Spigot forums and MC-Market. Though, in both places, trading around Minecraft: PE can be hardly found. Now back to PocketMine forums, where we already have a resource platform, then the only technical difficulty is erased. Why leaving the job to others?

    Yes, PocketMine team does all the hard work, they made PocketMine open-source and free. That doesn't just mean all built-on-PocketMine products should be open-source and free as well. Think of Linux. Linux is open-source and free, and the Linux team does a lot of work to build the operating system as well. Does it sound to you, that all software running on Linux should be open-source and free? Nope, there are a lot of paid software on Linux. Some companies even introduce paid operating system building on Linux. But all of these behaviors are acquiesced. Not only since Linux team is a bunch of good guys, but most importantly, the spirit behind open-source is freedom.

    Freedom grants Linux users the rights to extend their software for both commercial and non-commercial use as long as they carry the responsibilities of their own work. Then, why can't we grant PocketMine users the rights to extend PocketMine (a.k.a. coding plugins) for both commercial and non-commercial as long as they carry the responsibilities of their own work? Actually the rights are already granted in the license of PocketMine already, the next step is simply to include the channels for developers to sell their work. That's it.
    PEMapModder and hoyinm14mc like this.
  3. PEMapModder
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    PEMapModder Notable Member Plugin Developer

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    I love your logic. But how can you explain this one?

    Behind this law:
    And it is difficult to define it. For example, in Hong Kong, many people apply for the much-demand-little-supply public housing. Some aren't in urgent need of it (because they indeed have capability to rent flats), but some are in desperate need to get it. But we can only say that those people abusing/cheating the system are immoral, but nobody, not even laws, can disallow them. That is the same case.
    jojoe77777 likes this.
  4. TigerHix
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    TigerHix Active Member

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    You probably didn't realize that:

    is not the objective reason behind "no stealing".

    Laws are set up to meet two goals: one is to safeguard peace, another is to safeguard the interest of most people. Stealing is a behavior that thieves gain their interest by harming others' interests. The behavior breaks the peace, obviously, and it would as well affects the interest of most people (= non-theives). Therefore, stealing is not tolerated in the law.

    Meanwhile, the housing problem is totally different. The issue is caused because of the faultiness of the policy; therefore the issue can somehow be resolved if the policy is fixed. For example, the government goes on investigating the income of appliers. Besides, the objective reason behind the "public housing" policy, is not that "providing houses to people in need is a moral behavior", but "social welfare must be ensured (to satisfy the interest of most people)"; and the ultimate reason is to guarantee the domination of the government. And, after all, comparing to abuse use of the housing system, I do not consider selling my own plugins as immoral. ;)
    PEMapModder likes this.
  5. Vaivez66
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    Vaivez66 Notable Member Plugin Developer

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    So excited....
  6. da123rrell
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    da123rrell Active Member

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    I still dont want any paid section for plugins. If there is the free plugin will be less developed and the paid plugin will be more developed. Most servers start from the ground. Like me. I started hosting on my phone.
  7. Legoboy0215
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    Legoboy0215 Notable Member

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    I am soooo excited to read another episode of @PEMapModder's debating skills... :p
    @TigerHix is good too!
    A guy from MCPC v.s. A guy from MCPE
    LDX likes this.
  8. da123rrell
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    da123rrell Active Member

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    Mcpe and mcpc community should be different
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  9. da123rrell
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    da123rrell Active Member

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    Ill problably only like the donate but paid plugin... Dont think so
  10. Legoboy0215
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    Legoboy0215 Notable Member

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    We don't hate. They are good too!
  11. iksaku
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    iksaku Notable Member Plugin Developer

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    Well, getting back to party, and quoting via OTA the "suggestion" from @Falk about donations...
    We know that if people if given the option to "Valuate the plugin and give whatever they want", they will go the free way, just because they care of just "getting what they want with less effort".
    I have just seen 1 user trying to donate to my first plugin: EssentialsPE, and it was 3 days ago, and after that, he asked to implement things if he donated.
    Also, there are people getting nuts because of bugs...
    As @Falk told, what we do is just "for the love of art", we don't get anything from them more than "the satisfaction of helping others", but even if you don't trust me, developers also have a life... Almost every developer in here has to go to school, some of them (like me) also have a girlfriend to care about, and finally, we have this community. But comparing it with Bukkit/Spigot, in PC's communities, 1 from 100 users of a plugin asks for help directly to developers and get an answer, while the other 99 search for "their own faults" on bad configurations or usage on the plugin, and in this "Pocket/Mobile" community, 99 users complain to the devs, and just 1 user search if he had made any mistakes.

    We understand that you, as we all tough once, need "certain things" for your server, but as always:
    "If you want something in certain time and with specific characteristics, DO IT BY YOURSELF; else, PAY SOMEONE to do it for you"
    TigerHix, PEMapModder and basprohop like this.
  12. da123rrell
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    da123rrell Active Member

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    The point is...
  13. TigerHix
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    TigerHix Active Member

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    Have been curious that no one have replied since Sunday, as the guy over here is exactly the perfect negative example.

    What you care, is only about yourself and your server. You are opposed to the paid section, simply because less free plugins will be developed for you. Simply because more paid plugins will be developed, and that affects your interests, hence you are definitely discontented.

    A donate option? Sure, you quickly approve. Because you know you don't need to donate first before downloading the plugin, and you know very well that you would never click on the donate button. Adding a donate button does not damage your interests at all, and it seems that developers will be already satisfied if there is a donate button, so of course you say approve.

    But you seem to be forgetting one thing, one essential thing: plugins are developed by us, by us I mean the developers, the people that have spent hours and hours of time into their own work that they treat like treasure, perhaps they are doing it for the love of art, perhaps they are doing it for the root of all evils, whatever the reason behind is, plugins belongs to their own property, and developers certainly, and absolutely can judge the values of their work better than an I-dun-wanna-pay user like you.

    @PEMapModder has raised a point against setting a price tag for the plugins, arguing such behavior is "forcing users to pay". But ladies and gentlemen, how is not the guy over here. and many, many people in the forums, "forcing plugins to be free"?

    I already refuted such arguments long time ago but - how? How is that even related to the topic we are talking about? If you want so, then let's make everything different. From today on, PocketMine no longer follows the API of Bukkit, we will rollback to the old-fashioned procedural programming style; from today on, unlike you can sell your own work on PC platform, all plugins developed on PocketMine should be open-source to strictly follow the newly set GPLv3 license; from today on, although PC servers gain profit every month from their original content, we need to become different and no servers should make profit from players, and without doubt Lifeboat is the first to be knocked out.

    How about that? Are you satisfied now?

    Sir, you built your server from the ground, you started hosting on your phone. But seriously, we don't care. Without the plugins released here, your server could never survive unless you start learning how to code by yourself. And if you have ever learnt coding, at least you could have some empathy already and not yelling here for showing your ignorance and disrespect towards the content creators.
    LDX likes this.
  14. PEMapModder
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    PEMapModder Notable Member Plugin Developer

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    If you are pointing out from the points of interest, I have definitely no conflicts of interests here because I don't even use any of the plugins there except downloading a few from @shoghicp that are actually documentation for the API instead of for usage (and FastTransfer as per advice to maintain compatibility automatically). And I am a plugin developer, so I am definitely talking from my own interest.
    This is an online community. I am not going to argue with you how the PocketMine community should be different as you would probably just tag me as the one who knows nothing about profit, as one of the stubborn old members, as an old member who thinks he has longer experience here and has the right to define the values here, as the one who refuses to accept any opinions, as the one who has phobia at commercialization or as the one who does not get the ability to get paid and therefore doesn't want others too. I am not saying you would, but these are conflicts of values that are impossible to reach a consensus through online forums. I am only trying to point out that commercialization often worsens things. For instance, many cities originally had a good source of tourists probably because of their natural environment, their historical heritages, etc. But when the authorities noticed that and began to develop tourism, they usually ended up turning ancient courts into shopping centers, turning jungles into theme parks, etc.

    Values conflicts aside, let me repeat and rephrase what @shoghicp has said over our conversation on IRC. He pointed out that rules never disallowed donation buttons to be included in plugin threads. Meanwhile, he repeated about his own development on PocketMine - he did not intend to gain any profit from it. He didn't force people to make free plugins, but he gave an answer to this thread - PocketMine will not add a paid plugin section. But developers can release them elsewhere.

    PocketMine isn't PayPal. It is not responsible for supporting donations. If you like it so much, just add your own one.
    TigerHix likes this.
  15. TigerHix
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    TigerHix Active Member

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    Thanks for letting me know the final decision of Shoghi. To clarify, actually I didn't mean to quote you as "forcing plugins to be free". "The guy over here" is referring to @da123rrell. And I don't want to tag you as anything, since I must admit and respect your work and your contribution towards PocketMine, and undoubtedly, you along with other PocketMine contributors shall have the final say on this issue.

    But let me just, spare no trouble and raise the point again: your values don't apply to everyone. And even though conflicts of values are impossible to reach a consensus, we can always reach a state of compromise.

    And in fact, commercialization in this case, is bringing the whole community into a better place. Commercialization did bring many historical heritages into messes, but commercialization on the Minecraft server community - which we can take both PC and PE as the examples - is certainly beneficial to the whole community. You may not be familiar with the PC community, so I will just use Lifeboat as the example again. Can Lifeboat sustain their huge amount of servers if the commercialization didn't take place? Oh, don't tell me commercialization only applies to a few servers. Even small-scaled servers, take the server of @da123rrell as an example, are already accepting donations with rewards in exchange.

    And what's your move? Are you going to ban all freemium servers like what Mojang did to the PC servers, which was proven not working at all? But wait, is commercialization wrong or immoral in this case? First, hosting servers definitely cost your money; and second, with the encouragement from the profit, and the fear of the competitors in the market, Lifeboat along with other servers, are developing new gamemode every month; without commercialization at the first place, we wouldn't have witnessed the greatness of what PocketMine can be extended to.

    And the present situation of the PE server community, is totally identical to what happens to PC server community three years ago. And yeah, "they are still different" although they are identical. How amazing.

    Therefore I am really curious, that why someone's promoting their freemium server is allowed, while someone's promoting a paid plugin is not allowed. Is that still the freedom spirit of GNU license of the PocketMine? I bet only Shoghi knows.

    Finally, of course PocketMine is not Paypal nor the team behind have to be responsible of supporting donations. But PocketMine team is not responsible to build a communication platform (a.k.a. forums) as well. PocketMine team is also not responsible to build a free-only plugin section. PocketMine team is not responsible to anything. Adding a paid plugin section is a suggestion and desire, and let me repeat again, the scheme is already well-tested in other communities, the scheme is already proven to be beneficial on the whole PocketMine server community, the scheme is already proven to be feasible and practicable. Under the situation that you are fully aware of above, and you still ban the idea simply because of reasons that cannot be justified such as "shoghi doesn't want it" or "communities should be unique to each other", is what really frustrated me as well as other members.

    This brought me some recent memories. The author of the VPN software, shadowsocks, a software that is widely used within mainland China to access "non-existent" websites, was forced to delete all his code from Github by Chinese police. The Chinese government and the supporters can have thousands of “justice" reasons, such as the existence of such software allows "anti-party elements" to spread information, which can cause the country in turmoil. Is this reason wrong or immoral? In fact, it sounds correct and moral even from the people's view. But just like this reason is not actually the overall reason of Chinese government to set up such a wall to disallow people from accessing foreign websites, "communities are different" is also probably not the overall reason of the opposers to a paid plugin section.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2015
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  16. aliuly
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    aliuly Notable Member Plugin Developer

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    So how does one add a "donation button"? Since you can not include arbitrary HTML code here, I don't think it is possible. Any ideas how this could be done? I know you can add a link, but that means you would have to create a web site just for that...
    TigerHix likes this.
  17. Primus
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    Primus Notable Member

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  18. aliuly
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    aliuly Notable Member Plugin Developer

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  19. PEMapModder
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    PEMapModder Notable Member Plugin Developer

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    Well, actually the tiny but critical difference between servers and plugins are that servers have inevitable physical cost (hosting a server inevitably requires you to pay something) but plugins don't (developing a plugin requires a lot of time of effort but they are not measurable nor balance-able). This is actually a minor difference, and if this is spoken by a non-developer he would probably get eggs and tomatoes thrown on his face. Totally a debating argument, but this argument doesn't even convince myself :p But indeed, this is why I won't let (even if they can) my plugins be paid but I find it necessary (or as an excuse that convinces myself but nobody else, probably because I no longer play many servers) for servers to "sell" things in order to enhance income. After all, by nature hosting an MCPE server is an expensive thing compared to developing a plugin - you definitely have to pay a lot to support the server; meanwhile, plugin development can be very lowly-costing, depending on how you judge the process. (If you love dish-washing, you wouldn't find it a disgusting job and you would be pleasant to do it all the day)
    TigerHix likes this.
  20. aliuly
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    aliuly Notable Member Plugin Developer

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    Plugin development takes time. Time is actually more valuable than money. After all if you lose money you can always get it back. You never get back time.
    LDX and TigerHix like this.

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